Star posting my picture in C-box and more

[Deleted]

Alright. Timeout then.

I think one thing important here is that Due Process is important. Before we make any action like this I want to see the complete logs which means I'm probably going to have to bug a head mod or the admin to scan that far back. I need dates and cbox times from you guys to make this process easier.

when did this happen?

[An'ei Sekitan]

Somewhere between 4 PM and 10 PM EST according to my history. Two weeks prior, so probably two weeks back and within a day or two left or right of 14 days ago.

[Starnaess]

Y have you not read a single thing from what i said above? because it looks like that - i never saved anything, i never passed anything.....

[Dr. Neuro, RN]

If Jyuuken added you in Facebook, you could check Facebook for that date and time.

[Flower]

Mods and other staff have already given their opinion on this, warnings inacted, but figured I would go ahead and put this here anyways. For me the main issues comes down to a major difference between what you and Coal are saying -- Coal: " I informed Star that I disliked that and told him to knock that shit off, it was a dick move. For the next few days after that, it was shit about my hat and mouth open kneeling and bullshit like that. I laughed it off, but did bring up that posting my picture and shit like that was not cool. Still nothing. Still getting trolled." And Star: "i dint spam anything it ended right there - but ofc coal playfully said "you saved my pic and you are linking it" and stuff like that which is not true. Now i dont really wanna bring in snow on this but im sure he could testify that the chat we had 2 weeks ago was all fun and jokes - ofc coal took it too far with the saved pic thing which later on got distorted." Was this or was this not something that was going on for several days or was it an incident from two weeks ago? Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is any way of verifying what Star's intentions were without logs, pms, or testimony from a reliable member. Either way, however, the warning has been issued and (as is often the case with warnings) some people feel like it wasn't warranted, and you move on. Speaking as someone who has personally had their own problems with harassment and identity being stolen in the c-box, I do not like this. I do not think it is a rational expectation to believe that if someone posts their FB that others will be open to save and share their images/personal information. That information is shared at the individual's discretion and within the limits that they feel comfortable with.

Also, I wonder abut what Coal said ("I laughed it off, but did bring up that posting my picture and shit like that was not cool.") and Star I wonder how you responded to this? Did you continue talking about / posting the pictures after he told you to stop?

Honestly did not like how people were messing with Star right away, talking about jerking off to the picture and saying he had the picture pulled up on a second monitor. I get these may have been jokes, but it was clearly a serious issue and both sides were heated -- there was no reason to push the issue. Felt a little bit like baiting to me. This situation probably could have gone a lot more smoothly without all of the tension that this caused. At the end of the day though, pretty disappointed with staff as a whole on this one. We work as a team and if one staff member makes a mistake or a player feels like they can't be heard, then that's on all of us. So Coal, I sincerely apologize. Also, Star, I know I don't know the whole story and there are parts that both sides may be misinterpretting, leaving no real answer. But no matter how you feel about Coal, he still deserves to at least speak up if he feels upset. I did not see this as trolling based on this (as you said) brief conversation. I see this as a person who is feels genuinely harassed and is trying to speak up about it (whether or not this is the case) and he deserves to bring that stuff up.

Coal, a little surprsed that if this was an issue you had not come to staff about it earlier, but I understand wanting to not bring up your problems and taking them on yourself. Still, it isn't true that you have a horrible reputation with staff and that all of them look the other way if you're bullied. Yes I understand that you have a lot more restrictions and stuff "hanging over your head" but that doesn't mean that we aren't still here for you. Would have liked to get a pm from you at the beginning of this and would have directed it up the ladder. As evidence by this thread, you have people who are willing to hear you if you need to be heard. Like I said, this ultimately falls on staff as a whole for making you feel like that, but I hope that in the future you won't feel that way. You can always pm us about stuff and maybe we can avoid this next time? (Also, sorry for random question in the middle of this chat, was super faded and tired so wasn't reading logs -.- )

As a final note, I've been trying to keep up with all the posts coming into this thread but this was a long post so if any of this information is outdated or has been reiterated by other staff, I apologize.

[Deleted]

Get me those dates. I already updated headmods and the admin on the situation. It may take them a while to get updated on the situation and find the logs. In the meantime I want you two to take a break from each other and not bring this topic back up until we can get those logs.

[Madame Loki]

Nothing of what you said, excuses anything that you did. I'll explain my position clearly so there is no misunderstanding, here.

I personally don't deal with past actions when talking about a CURRENT situation. I don't give a damn what you have done in the past. I look at a situation as it is in that moment, and after that situation has been resolved, then I go back and look at the whole picture to see how things relate.

In this incident, you stepped out of line. I don't care how Coal is looked at by his past actions. I go on the information that is currently prudent in the present. The facts are, you linked a picture, from Coal's Facebook page, without his consent. Whether you spammed it or not does not matter, the fact that to linked it period without his permission, and had no remorse or care for doing so is. He expressed that he did not like it, you continued to make jokes about it at his expense. Whether you took this statement to be serious or not is irrelevant. I also find it ironic that this is coming from you, but i won't go into detail why, because it's not relevant to this case. And regardless of the picture incident is not what the majority of us are concerned with. It's your blatant disregard of it altogether, just because it's coal.

And you can not disregard what someone is saying, just because they are a new member, and "Don't know the dynamics." Because the way she was viewing it, is exactly the way I viewed it, and still am viewing it. He clearly was not trolling, and was clearly upset if he took the time to make a complaint thread.

You don't have to out right say "I give no fucks I have authority". It's implied in your statements in the C-box... and in your statements here as you try to defend yourself, that this is exactly how you feel when it comes to coal. However, when the subject was brought up, and Cadoc asked "how do you respond to those claims." you absolutely said that you give Zero Fucks, exactly that. More over you went on to say that if coal went to make a complaint that it would result in Coal getting a warning... because it's Coal. And your defense seems to be that, because Coal is seen by some as a troll, that you can somehow convince people that this was some massive troll on his part?

Nothing you've said, shows that you are taking any own-age of the situation, or that you have any intentions of trying to resolve it. You are just pushing the blame further and further towards Coal. In hopes that his past reputation some how tilts the ruling in your favor. That is how I am interrupting this situation. But as I said... I look at issues in a vacuum, so how coal is perceived has no baring on my view on things.

In this instance, from what I have gathered...

- Coal shared his FB page, for anyone who wanted to add him as a friend
- You took advantage of the situation to link a picture from his FB to the C-box, and
proceeded to joke about it.
- Coal took exception, and asked you not to do that and to calm down with the jokes.
- You continued, to joke about it.
- You tell coal several weeks later to shut the fuck up, for something that really
amounts to nothing.
- He brings the incident back up because it was not resolved to his satisfactory, and
your kurt aggressive response, triggered him.
- You proceed to goad and prod at him about the situation to the point where he says he
will make a complaint, at the behest of several members who were witnessing the
situation.
- You tell him that if he makes a complaint it would result in him getting a warning.
- And went on to say the same thing to cadoc for supporting him.
- Now you are saying you said that, because you believed all this to be a massive
troll, and because it's coal, it should be taken as exactly that, a Massive elaborate
troll.

My response... Nah.

That's situation as I saw it, and as I see it now with all the facts having been presented. I don't give a damn about what he did or has done in the past. This is a fucked up situation, and you're in the middle of it, trying to dump everything in Coal's lap. I don't buy that you think this is one massive troll at this point, and I don't feel you thought it was a troll then. I feel this you you trying to cover your own ass right now.

[An'ei Sekitan]

My history doesn't go back that far. I'll ask Jyuuken if he still has it though.

[Deleted]

Sorry Loki but you're reaching on a lot of your points.

- Coal shared his FB page, for anyone who wanted to add him as a friend. (correct)

- You took advantage of the situation to link a picture from his FB to the C-box, and
proceeded to joke about it. (correct)

- Coal took exception, and asked you not to do that and to calm down with the jokes. (unconfirmed)

We need clarity here that only the chat logs will show, if there was a moment where he was told not to do that again then it makes whether or not he had any sort of plausible deniability to how much this was actually bothering coal very important. 

- You continued, to joke about it. (unconfirmed)

- You tell coal several weeks later to shut the fuck up, for something that really
amounts to nothing. (Correct, speculation) 

- He brings the incident back up because it was not resolved to his satisfactory, and
your kurt aggressive response, triggered him. (correct) 

- You proceed to goad and prod at him about the situation to the point where he says he
will make a complaint, at the behest of several members who were witnessing the
situation. (correct, contextual or up to interpretation) 

This is going to be important for determining any sort of plan to move forwards. That cbox log during the conversation was a collaboration of everyone goading and prodding from all parties, you are even involved during this. The nature of the cbox was that it was crass. If someone gets upset and its brought up, it should be stopped instantly. What I think is the Macguffin we need to find to actually sort this out is whether or not Star was asked to stop it, and if he did whether or not he continued to do so. 

- You tell him that if he makes a complaint it would result in him getting a warning. (Correct) 

I don't think anyone here is condoning this. Frankly, this right here is where I think Star would earn a warning of a verbal or a  33%. In the military we would call this conduct unbecoming. As a staff member you should be actively trying to inspire faith in the systems not trying to discourage people from attempting. 

- And went on to say the same thing to cadoc for supporting him. (correct) 

- Now you are saying you said that, because you believed all this to be a massive
troll, and because it's coal, it should be taken as exactly that, a Massive elaborate
troll. (speculation) 



Where that leaves me is this. 

Conduct unbecoming is a minor behavioral problem that can be fixed. It is something that can be worked on. Harassment however is way more serious. Harassment seems to be the basis for the arguments being pushed out right now and as of right now we have no textual proof that this happened. So again. 

This leaves us in a place where we need to figure out what exactly happened. We need to do a diagnosis of every issue that occured here and then sort them out as a collective. 

[Madame Loki]

Jul 12, 2018 12:29:49 GMT -7 snowflake said:

Sorry Loki but you're reaching on a lot of your points.

- Coal took exception, and asked you not to do that and to calm down with the jokes. (unconfirmed)

We need clarity here that only the chat logs will show, if there was a moment where he was told not to do that again then it makes whether or not he had any sort of plausible deniability to how much this was actually bothering coal very important. 

- You continued, to joke about it. (unconfirmed)

When Coal brought both of those points up in the C-box Star made no attempt to deny or correct, he simple said, I give zero shits. As fair as am concerned that's admission.

- You tell coal several weeks later to shut the fuck up, for something that really
amounts to nothing. (Correct, speculation) 

- You proceed to goad and prod at him about the situation to the point where he says he will make a complaint, at the behest of several members who were witnessing the
situation. (correct, contextual or up to interpretation)

The first point this is not speculation. I was there when it happened. I was involved in the conversation, that lead up to this point. And Star telling him to Shut the fuck up came out of no where, and was completely unwarranted.

Second point, Coal was complaining about the incident, and Star proceeds to say in very colorful and admittedly creative ways, that coal was trolling, and a clown, he even admitted to doing such in here.  What's up for interpretation? How is that not goading someone who is relaying a grievance?

- Now you are saying you said that, because you believed all this to be a massive
troll, and because it's coal, it should be taken as exactly that, a Massive elaborate
troll. (speculation) 

Not speculation, it's clear that's what he's saying in his first post in defense of himself.

You can wait for more proof if that's what you need. The judgement has already be handed down and I agree with it. This isn't a court of law you don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I was there and I saw someone who didn't care what they were saying or doing, because of the person they were dealing with. Nothing shared here has convinced me otherwise.

[Deleted]

beyond reasonable doubt?
I don't want beyond reasonable doubt. I want to read the text logs and make sure we are all looking at the same material. The speed at which you are so quick to say, we don't need the logs, we didn't even need to hear star and your own reliance on your speculations makes me all the more cemented that I want to view these logs for sure. Discipline is something that should always be done with as much justice as possible. If you don't want to do the extra leg work to make sure this is sorted properly thats fine. I'll be seeing this through.

I'm not in the habit of handing out judgements without knowing the full picture or even hearing both sides of the story regardless if judgement has been made by others. The fact that discipline was handed out without even asking the other person what happened just shows that our discipline standards we are trying to establish is not proactive but reactive to emotional appeals and not based on a code of conduct or an expectation we have set before hand. This is inethical and this isn't something we can afford to be flippant about. I've been on the receiving end of this and I won't let that slide.

Beyond that your closing point is something I already addressed. I understand his response to coal was unwarranted. I don't however think we can just take this at face value without looking at the logs and determining if there was any actual harassment or if this was a one off that was already addressed that fed into a argument concerning coals reputation. While the later part of the claim seems to be true, whether or not the punishment handed out is justified for one offense or several offense matters because the things we do set a precedent.

If the punishment we hand out for the same or similar infractions starts to become a similar to one another just because we don't want to look any further it just opens up for more potential abuse, a higher potential for people to seem targeted in the future and an appearance that staff itself doesn't have a standard operating procedure regarding discipline and how it needs to be handled.

One of the headmods has already reached out to me and said they were going to look further into this.

More to follow.

[Hamura]

Jul 12, 2018 13:21:16 GMT -7 Madame Loki said:

The first point this is not speculation. I was there when it happened. I was involved in the conversation, that lead up to this point. And Star telling him to Shut the fuck up came out of no where, and was completely unwarranted.

Second point, Coal was complaining about the incident, and Star proceeds to say in very colorful and admittedly creative ways, that coal was trolling, and a clown, he even admitted to doing such in here.  What's up for interpretation? How is that not goading someone who is relaying a grievance?

While I agree that some of these things were said, I want to also point out that some people do in fact have a history of trolling or baiting, and that sometimes the whole "I don't give a fuck" attitude is actually the best way to be dealing with it. There is a reason why some people throw around the sentence "Do not feed the Troll". Now i'm not saying Coal was trolling, but if Star did in fact think that Coal was trolling at that point (Which was entirely possible given this thing happened two weeks ago), saying something like it would not have been that much of a stretch.

I mean, i've had some issues with other people who were involved with this ordeal (Not Coal or Star) actively trolling and baiting in the chatbox just to get a rise out of people or to bait them back into conversations. At times like that, having the "I don't give a shit" attitude is likely the best attitude one can have as it keeps people from jumping out of their skin and getting creative in the chatbox, which is not a good color on a member of staff. And as we all know due to something that happened a week ago, sometimes outright telling people to quit something doesn't always result in them quitting, at which threatening with a warning might sometimes do the trick.

Now, while me saying this is just as much "Reaching" as Loki with her earlier statement, I feel like we should all stop taking sides on things and stick to what we know. So far, the only person who's been an active part of this conversation that also remained neutral has been Snow, seeing as other people already have their knifes and tools ready to outright lynch Star. And I personally feel like if people have already taken a side in the matter, they should step out and wait for the Head Mods to come up with the logs so people can figure out Exactly what happened without the whole "He said / She said" thing, as most of what we know and heard has been very circumstantial.

So i'm not personally attacking anyone by saying all of this, i'm just saying that circumstances like these should also be taken into account when we're going about this whole thing by reaching for straws. So i'll refer to the paragraph directly above this again by saying that "People who have picked a side already should not take part in this conversation/problem solving", as it sets the wrong example and takes things into the wrong direction. We're gonna want to go about this fairly, not insta-lynch the person that seems to be the most wrong in this particular instance without having the full story.

[👺 Usiel]

No more posting. I'll be going through the 2 or 3 weeks of archives.

Sidenote, any punishment pertaining towards another member is kept confidential.

[👺 Usiel]

This is the earliest indication of Coal mentioning Star posting photos.

2018-07-01 17:49:04 Coal Star apparently keeps photos of me, but wants to talk about me suckin' dicks?

This is the first time Coal said stop.

2018-07-02 11:52:08 Starnaess usiel u on?
2018-07-02 11:52:28 Coal Heero the only older Uchiha than me and his dude is retired.
2018-07-02 11:52:32 Coal AKA ded.
2018-07-02 11:53:02 Coal I'm king dingaling Uchiha in this bitch!
2018-07-02 11:53:17 Starnaess u protean scum
2018-07-02 11:53:34 Coal I was never protean, you creeper.
2018-07-02 11:53:38 Hamura Well
2018-07-02 11:54:05 Hamura I do doubt it in the sense that I don't think people would be outright attacking a wind country location
2018-07-02 11:54:16 Coal Why wouldn't I?
2018-07-02 11:54:33 Hamura But if people feel strongly about doing it, i'd like to see what would come of it IC
2018-07-02 11:54:37 Starnaess im going to attack protean on sight
2018-07-02 11:54:4Starnaess from now on
2018-07-02 11:54:5Coal You gonna save their pics from FB too?
2018-07-02 11:54:52 Coal Weirdo.
2018-07-02 11:54:53 Coal LOl
2018-07-02 11:54:57 Starnaess yes
2018-07-02 11:54:59 Hamura Haha
2018-07-02 11:55:02 Starnaess and if they have pictures with hats
2018-07-02 11:55:05 Starnaess they will be the first to die
2018-07-02 11:55:08 Hamura v
2018-07-02 11:55:12 Coal Creepy ass.
2018-07-02 11:55:13 Hamura Fedora hats or just hats
2018-07-02 11:55:2Starnaess bitch ass hat w earing bitch
2018-07-02 11:55:28 Coal This creepy creep saved my FB pic to post it and shit without my permission and everything.
2018-07-02 11:55:28 Coal Lol
2018-07-02 11:55:36 Hamura xD
2018-07-02 11:55:39 Starnaess i got snows pic too
2018-07-02 11:55:42 Starnaess with his mouth wide open
2018-07-02 11:55:46 Coal Like...that's so creepy.
2018-07-02 11:55:49 Starnaess i edited it so ppl could see it better
2018-07-02 11:56:04 Coal Don't be posting my pics without my permission, amigo.
2018-07-02 11:56:17 Starnaess i never posted anything i told you yesterday
2018-07-02 11:56:19 Y The site canon is essentially that the surviving uchiha are scattered.
2018-07-02 11:56:2Snowmobile 107.77.105.112 Weirdo
2018-07-02 11:56:22 Starnaess i linked your pic in chat
2018-07-02 11:56:3Coal Yeah.
2018-07-02 11:56:31 Coal That's a post.
2018-07-02 11:56:31 Y And konoha is probably somehow involved with the massacre.
2018-07-02 11:56:44 Coal Knock that shit off.
2018-07-02 11:56:45 Coal Lol
2018-07-02 11:57:01 Hamura Probably
2018-07-02 11:57:07 Coal It was actually Kusa, Y.
2018-07-02 11:57:11 Coal And by Kusa...I mean me.
2018-07-02 11:57:25 Coal I did it when I destroyed Leaf.
2018-07-02 11:57:34 Y That was before revamp coal.
2018-07-02 11:57:53 Y Everyone knows that those are actually bootleg uchiha you killed
2018-07-02 11:57:55 Coal True, but it was still Site Cannonicalyl me.
2018-07-02 11:58:01 Y Fair.
2018-07-02 11:58:02 Coal Cannonically*
2018-07-02 11:58:23 Hamura Well, just means it makes that much more sense for it to not be in Konoha
2018-07-02 11:58:27 Hamura Just saying
2018-07-02 11:58:42 Y I mean, it could also make sense in Konha .
2018-07-02 11:58:44 Starnaess fucking loacker eating bitch
2018-07-02 11:58:5Y But that would be a different type of thing .
2018-07-02 11:59:07 Starnaess Y, you in suna yet?
2018-07-02 11:59:35 Coal But yeah, I killed all of the Uchiha cause they kept banding together try and attack Kusa.
2018-07-02 11:59:56 Starnaess the only thing u can do is pick up sekizen's poop
2018-07-02 12:00:19 Coal Is someone else talking?
2018-07-02 12:00:29 Hamura Something about poop
2018-07-02 12:00:4Starnaess something about hats too
2018-07-02 12:00:43 Coal That's what I thought I heard...but there's nobody important saying anything.
2018-07-02 12:00:55 Coal Damn NPCs are buckin' the program again.
2018-07-02 12:00:56 Starnaess alright u shiki wannabe
2018-07-02 12:00:58 Starnaess ill come for you
2018-07-02 12:01:21 Coal [swats at Star] Flies buzz so annoyingly.
2018-07-02 12:01:4Y Actually coal.
2018-07-02 12:01:53 Starnaess Y u in suna?
2018-07-02 12:01:54 Y I like the idea that there have been multiple Uchiha genocides. Lmao.
2018-07-02 12:02:02 Y Not yet star.
2018-07-02 12:02:09 Coal Hahaha. Oh, why is that...um...Y?
2018-07-02 12:02:38 Y Implies that it wasn't just one off .
2018-07-02 12:02:44 Y Implies that people fucking hate uchiha .
2018-07-02 12:03:07 Coal Heero hates the Uchiha most of all.
2018-07-02 12:03:55 Coal Hates them so much he scrapped his own.
2018-07-02 12:04:01 Y Lmao.
2018-07-02 12:04:33 Coal It's why he won't make Mangekyou.
2018-07-02 12:05:22 Y Tbf, he made the regular sharingan pretty good.
2018-07-02 12:05:28 Coal It all fits. He made that Shitakuma Clan or whatever to hard counter Uchiha sight gen.
2018-07-02 12:05:44 Coal Made all these things to blind.
2018-07-02 12:05:48 Coal Created Batman.
2018-07-02 12:05:55 Coal All to combat the Uchiha plague!
2018-07-02 12:06:09 Coal Sharingan is pretty good, this is true. But it's not complete without its final form.
2018-07-02 12:06:23 Coal AND THIS IS NOT BITCHING, HEERO! I KNOW YOU'RE LURKING!
2018-07-02 12:09:1Starnaess final form LUL
2018-07-02 12:09:23 Starnaess would bne fun to see that happen under an EPIC
2018-07-02 12:09:28 Starnaess that takes like 3 slots
2018-07-02 12:09:44 Starnaess bbut then every single bl would need to have one
2018-07-02 12:09:46 Starnaess thats alot of work

[Deleted]

I guess the question next is. Did he continue to post or spread it around after he was asked to stop?

[👺 Usiel]

2018-07-05 00:46:02 Starnaess *throws a hat @coal*
2018-07-05 00:46:14 Coal [immune]

[Starnaess]

Yes fun banter, posted the pic that time only never again. I said this multiple times already. All in the post i made in page 1

[An'ei Sekitan]

I laughed because I was uncomfortable. It's a mechanism of mine, but I was serious that it was creepy and I didn't like it.

[Starnaess]

While understandable, if you laugh in chat i cant see your face so i take the laugh as authentic. no1 can read minds so if something makes you uncomfortable then just say so - i do have a wierd sense of humor but i tend to make these kind of jokes to people that i think understand them as such - like snow.

You said dont post pics and i didnt. The mood of the conv allowed for such jokes when we made it but like i said, i NEVER took it further than that never spammed saved edited anything.

---

[👺 Usiel]

Because I do not wish to type this again, this is a part of a quote I made somewhere else.

Jul 13, 2018 14:22:00 GMT -7 👺 Usiel said:

Again the warning was issued from the evidence given and what we clearly saw.

It's not the picture that got the warning. He posted it once, or twice, or continued to bring it up or not, that's not the issue. The issue, and the severity of the warning of star is how star handled the situation. He prodded him when the situation came back. It got to the point where Coal said he was making a complaint. Then Star proceeds with telling him to shut the fuck up and tells him that if he makes a complaint it would result in him getting a warning. Then said the same thing to Cadoc when Cadoc started supporting him.

Then on top of that he says "Well Coal is a troll." Like that fucking helps with the situation.