Too Many "Kill" Genjutsu Techniques?

[Deleted]

Name: Kaius?
Age: 15
Gender: Male
Type of Complaint: Genjutsu
Complaint:

Ok, so I for one love the new genjutsu system. The fact that people now have to roll in order to get rid of a genjutsu is the only real way I see of stopping meta-gaming, relying on people to just not do it is rediculous. The reason I'm making this thread is not because of the genjutsu system, but because of some of the techniques within genjutsu. Specifically the ones that cause instant death if you fail a dice roll.

=.='... The reason I make this thread is because I'm fed up of people bitching about it but then not making a thread to try and do something about it. Please understand I don't personally care all that much I just want this thread to be here for future referance of anybody else who complains about the subject.

If some consideration could be put underway to remove the techniques, however, this would be nice. I am a genjutsu user myself and I personally don't want some of these techniques to exist, or at least to have much more drawbacks to either the save or conditions that have to be met.

Solution:

Exactly as stated above, if something could be done about the instant killing that has been widely considered and bitched about as "OP" then that would be great. Although I would completely understand if the answer is a "No", quite simply because so much work was put in to genjutsu over the site update and a lot of people seem to not appreciate the work that was put in to these techniques. An explanation to why they have been kept would be nice also, rather than just a staight up answer. Thank you for your time.

[Deleted]

2 cents. I wasn't part of the discussions that have been going on in the C-box recently but I still have thoughts.

I understand that perhaps the intention was to give Genjutsu the same kill potential as Taijutsu or Ninjutsu as a standalone specialization, but the idea of literally just rolling a dice to see whether your creation (aka character) continues or ceases is frankly a terribly unappealing prospect. I would not wish to have this technique used on me, nor would I ever wish to use it on anyone else.

It's just an anti-fun mechanic and I, above all forms of combat, can never see it going down without people getting extremely butthurt. 'What a lame, unfair way to die'.

[Ancestor Febrie]

Haven't been on any of the c-box discussions and I have to agree with Kaizu. Rolling to see if you die or not really is lame, especially if someone has all of those techniques and can just spam them, not cool. Too much based on luck of the draw whereas for tai and nin you have a chance to show your RP skills.

[Yoshi [Lynx!]]

Apr 11, 2014 7:58:38 GMT -7 Ancestor Febrie said:

 you have a chance to show your RP skills.

This right here is the essence of the beef I have with Genjutsu kills. There's absolutely no skill about weaving signs and then rolling dices. What I would instead suggest, was that Genjutsu that is meant to have heavy hitting effects on opponents would drain their Stamina/Chakra by X percent while in effect.

The other arguement I have seen a lot, is the whole "but you can always hurt yourself to get out of a Genjutsu!" - That doesn't quite work if its an instant kill. As long as you get a chance to respond and escape, things will be fine. The instant kill bit is just terribly unappealing.

[Deleted]

Yoshi you cant hurt yourself to get out of a Genjutsu anymore, it does in fact increase the roll however. The only real solution to this problem is to simply remove the instant kill genjutsus, everybody can just stop complaining about the roll system.

The roll system is there to stop metagaming, this only is a real problem because of the instant kill genjutsus. If any action is going to be taken they will simply be removed, replaced with nerfed versions, or quite simply fully replaced with new techniques. That is of course if action is going to be taken anyway.

So to anybody complaining about the rolls rather than the actual techniques themselves, stop, the roll system is much better than nothing. Without the roll system genjutsu will be one hundred percent hit, and will most probably be nerfed back in to its old self. Metagaming will return causing it to be underpowered, the roll system is the only way to balance it.

[Deleted]

Going to have to agree with the others here on the roll vs just die instantly or be lucky with the rolls. I was not part any of the discussion, but the whole thing on that is not very appealing. Its not like it coming up with a good combination that works for them. Even with combos there is usually some form of counter play somewhere. It be one thing to losing to a well thought out plan and didn't see a counter before hand. Its another not being able to do anything once under. I'm planning to have a giant dog to help me if anything should happen like that.

[Aimi Kaguya]

Personally, I don't mind that there are a lot of instant kill genjutsu as a whole. I think it gives genjutsu masters a real reason to be masters other than to have characters that can toy with their opponents until they feel like putting a sword through their backs. My personal issue with it is in the wording of some of these genjutsu.

Before I go any further, I want this to be known now: I have not gone through the genjutsu section since it has been updated, nor have I taken a fairly close look at some of these instant kill jutsu. I understand the dice roll system and how it balances out the whole genjutsu system as a whole and I understand that a lot of times these instant kill or just extremely powerful genjutsu have a lot of drew backs and a lot of training you need to get in order to actually use them, making them almost like an ATI in a sense (Such as the compulsion genjutsu, which is where a lot of these genjutsu being complained about are form, I'm sure.)

For example. Someone sent me the wraithform genjutsu the other day to look over. I love this jutsu, I think it's awesome and I've mentioned more than once that I was thinking of making a genjutsu specialist whose build is surrounded by this one jutsu. That being said, the wording in it is... strange, to say the least. Specifically, the Effect part of the jutsu is what gets me. And I quote:

Effect: User can make the subject of this Jutsu partially insubstantial, in truth making them only 1/5th real.

Specifically, "in truth making them only 1/5th real". Now, someone was kind enough to explain to me in the Cbox that this genjutsu only makes it so that the taijutsu and ninjutsu techniques thrown at them hit less hard than what they actually do or else miss entirely, which is a very important distinction. Initially, from the wording of the effect and the entire jutsu itself, I was under the impression that this was quite literally displacing you from reality. I'm talking full scale Izanagi displacement here, and I still defend that Wraithform is NFRP's equivalent to the Izinagi. Something like this could easily be mistaken for a ninjutsu. I still think that it could be a ninjutsu as opposed to a genjutsu, but then perhaps I just don't understand genjutsu well enough.

Moving on, I believe one of the major complaints with all of this is the Power Word (Hope I got the name right...) compulsion genjutsu, which if I've understood it correctly, is the one where the opponent has one turn to save themselves or else they die. As someone who built their character specifically for a weakness in genjutsu, this seems only a tad unfair at first glance. I haven't actually gone and looked at the jutsu itself unlike Wraithform, but it seems fairly simple in application. Someone explained it as "Killing your opponent without killing them, tricking the brain into thinking that it's died" and I can't help but think that could very easily be a medical ninjutsu since it effects the brain so severely and in such a specific way.

Even so, I wouldn't necessarily call that GM because of the amount of training you have to go through in order to get this technique. You've got to have not one but two genjutsu types, then you have to master the Enchantment stuff just to get at the compulsion genjutsu release, and then from there you actually have to train the jutsu itself and lord knows how long that could potentially take - especially if you need another jutsu learned before it as a requirement. All in all it seems like the genjutsu equivalent to Kirin to me.

Bottom line, I think a lot of this "complaining" over the new genjutsu system being OP would vanish if some of the wording were changed. That's my personal opinion though, and I'm not saying that a lot of work wasn't put into the genjutsu system as it is now or the site as a whole really. I understand perfectly well the amount of work that went into the site update and subsequently the genjutsu system and you know what? Even though I don't currently use genjutsu, I can appreciate fine work when I see it. I understand that there must be a mountain of red tape to go through for the mods in the way of changing things even a little bit, but I'm fairly certain that changing the wording on some of these "instant kill" techniques would be a lot easier than getting rid of them entirely.

Das my two cents on the matter right there.

[Deleted]

I would like to quickly point out that I have tested the new system with Draven and from this I can say the roll system is balanced. I had a very crappy chance to dodge his gen with a 1d20 + 5 but still managed to get through each of his genjutsu until the very end.

The fight is in the arena and it lasted about 6 rounds, granted that Draven was probably going easy the rolls were still all too real.

Keep in mind that my character build is also rediculously weak and he is a S ranked genjutsu master. I have about over 1000 tp in to genjutsu with no illusion focus thus making it useless, and about 250 in to sensor that was not trained high enough to even use. So basically all I had to fight him were my items and a few taijutsu techniques and ninjutsu. Yet I still managed to hold out for a good 6 rounds.

Furthermore if my character build consists of that much offensive power then imagine how difficult an opponent would have been for Draven should they have been higher rank than me, have the eight gates for example, or maybe even brawler. Maybe they could have been a master of the paper or crystal release, maybe they might have had a bloodlimit or other powerful techniques up their sleeve which I did not have.

Since I assume none of the rest of you have actually any other proof to bring to this thread then this is the most we have to go by, and by the looks of things it proves that the dice rolls are in fact balanced. Even when I was hit by Draven's techniques it didn't matter, they weren't going to kill me instantly it was the genjutsu that followed up from that which actually took me out of the game and that was only because I didn't have anything like shunshin to close the distance when I could have.

Which means the dice rolls arent a problem, the techniques for instantly killing are the real issue.

That is the thing that needs to be changed everybody, not the dice rolls.

EDIT: The wording is alright, once you get your head around what the technique actually means its no real issue.

[Ancestor Febrie]

Apr 11, 2014 9:25:17 GMT -7 @kaius said:

Which means the dice rolls arent a problem, the techniques for instantly killing are the real issue.

Yes, that's what I gathered from everyone who posted in here. We are not saying the rolls are a problem.

[Deleted]

I have to agree, would go as far to say that the techniques are vastly over-powered.

If we fight in Taijutsu range its a dynamic battle you can counteract someones punch with a kick etc.

Ninjutsu can also be countered you simply dodge, block etc.
But isn't one of the Genjutsu techniques simply a word, that you don't even have to hear that kills like everything in a massive area.

Personally this goes against my interpretation of T1 rules. There isn't even a need to state where on the enemy you are targeting for example or who you simply shout "die"? Like the reality warper from zombie desu ka?

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2014 10:53:21 GMT -7 Ancestor Febrie said:

Apr 11, 2014 9:25:17 GMT -7 @kaius said:

Which means the dice rolls arent a problem, the techniques for instantly killing are the real issue.

Yes, that's what I gathered from everyone who posted in here. We are not saying the rolls are a problem.

Aye I know most people understand this, it's just for anybody viewing the thread who thinks changing the way fundamental genjutsu works will solve the problem.

[Deleted]

Solution:

I think I have a solution to this, that everybody may be able to agree upon:

Ok so having any genjutsu that can kill people outside that of compulsion is way to easy to aquire and as such should be removed. This I think everybody here can agree upon.

Next comes the power words, everybody thinks these are OP and rightly so and as such I have a few drawbacks here that could balance them out a lot more.

Power words must be heard, acknowledged (person can clearly hear and understand what the word means) and can be only used once per thread per class level.

This can apply for all the other power words except for petrify and kill, these two really cant be left alone without either being removed or having another drawback. So heres the idea:

We have Power Word: Kill simply removed, as it is too powerful no matter the drawback. Petrify is a good way of capturing somebody without actually killing them, as such I have thought of another drawback to it. That drawback would be having to actually make skin contact with the person you want to petrify, and the process is not instant and is rather slow which gives a person a specified time to dispell the jutsu.

That's the best solution I can think of whilst still leaving it fair for all possible sides of this arguement, thoughts on the matter? Something wrong with my solution? Please say so, I want a solution that everybody can agree upon after all.

EDIT: Power Word: Kill is a mastery for power words within compulsion, as such I think Power Word: Kill should be replaced with Petrify as a mastery for the power words.

Second EDIT: Yea.. I also remembered the techniques in the phantasm technique tree, I think they shouldnt be removed but rather their "Dying of Fear" effects be removed. If their death effects were to be removed they would still be good jutsu but wouldn't be OP either.

[Deleted]

I agree with basically everything said here. Rolling dice is the best way to prevent metagaming, but rolling dice to see whether you live or die is just the opposite of fun. Most of Kaius's corrections I can easily see working, but to be honest I'd keep the compulsion kills just because they're SO HARD to get. Even so, they need much heftier drawbacks.

The Phantasm "die of fear" stuff in particular is kinda ridiculous, especially when you consider that even if you WIN the dice roll you become horribly debilitated somehow

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2014 15:14:32 GMT -7 @tellar said:

I agree with basically everything said here. Rolling dice is the best way to prevent metagaming, but rolling dice to see whether you live or die is just the opposite of fun. Most of Kaius's corrections I can easily see working, but to be honest I'd keep the compulsion kills just because they're SO HARD to get. Even so, they need much heftier drawbacks.

The Phantasm "die of fear" stuff in particular is kinda ridiculous, especially when you consider that even if you WIN the dice roll you become horribly debilitated somehow

If Power Word: Kill were to be kept in then it would have to have a similar drawback. Something such as it slowly drains the life of an opponent, or is a form of curse that will eventually kill the victim (this does not stack, lasts for however many rounds), as opposed to an instant death. It should also have a chance at being negated each round that it remains active on a person, even if that person isnt aware the curse is on them.

That's the only way I think it could be balanced out.

[👺 Usiel]

I can remove Power Word Kill since it's S rank and way to high of a rank. This would make getting out of it very difficult. Other Jutsus no, I will not remove. I will not change, I will not alter. First I saw a thread I think made by you that GenJutsu is too easy to get out of, now there's a problem that people can die from them instantly. You do realize that you can stop most Gen by stopping the handseals in a one on one battle correct? You can also use Skills like Jutsu Lore to get a grasp of what you are going to expect.

Anyways I'm removing the S Ranks, and A ranks but other than that the rest stays as is.

[Deleted]

Yes, it was me who made the thread about rolls being underpowered. This was when I was still reading the full subject of genjutsu, however, and the thread shouldn't have been made in the first place. The roll system is perfectly balanced and I like how it has been implemented, Usiel.

I just don't see why you would remove the S ranks and the A ranks when you could make changes to them instead to balance them out. For example, the jutsu in phantasm would be balanced if the death by fear effects on them were to be removed.

It is true you could stop the handseals too, but that is situational and there are times in a fight where it is not possible.

Please try to understand where i'm coming from Usiel, the techniques are great but just need balancing to make them fair for everybody.

[👺 Usiel]

It is fair. I removed the high ranking ones because it is easier and fairer to get out of similar techniques at lower ranks, like the Phantasmal Killer. Sorry but I'm not going to just simply remove that effect. Death is a possibility. It happens, there are ways around it, there are ways to stop it. You will just have to look. At least I can see the issue with the high powerful ones and am removing those.

[Deleted]

Ok then, thank you for your time. My point has been made and appropriate changes have been made, Power Word: Kill was the main jutsu I wanted removed anyway.

This thread can now be locked.

[👺 Usiel]

Locked.